SRR GOLD TO YELLOW HERALDS
08/06/98
I have a question I wanted to field. I was wondering when Southern
Railway had switched from using gold lettering and end heralds to using
the yellow? Also which units were delivered in the yellow lettering?
And one last one, does anyone make the Southern Serves the South end
herald that is just the gold herald without the backing to go on those
first order of B23-7s? I have obtained a copy of Wither's Southern
Diesel book and it is great but I have not found and answer to this one.
Thanks for any help.
Jeremy Helms
08/07/98
Keep rooting around in that book - it's in there someplace for I was
reading my copy last week and saw it in there...I want to say it was in
the SD40-2 section.
Craig Zeni
08/07/98
Page 250... SD40-2 #3313 (for these)
It is interesting to note that many diesel units sporting the deluxe gold
(yellow) lettering & striping continued to have metallic gold heralds. I've
seen this on the GP50's in particular. I like to mix the Shellscale &
microscale decals to simulate variances in locomotive lettering & numbering
(colorwise)....
Steve Smith
09/04/98
I was curious as to what took the place of the circle Southern Railway
herald scheme on boxcars and the like? Also did Southern use two
different shades of green on like the passenger power and the earlier
diesel power? It appears to me that the E8 and FP7s seem to been "green"
where the older diesels seem to be a darker hue of green like an
evergreen tree. Thanks for all the help.
Jeremy Helms
09/04/98
Jeremy--the hearald was replaced at one time with the Southern
gives a green light logo with SOUTHERN in big block letters having
a green center to the "O". Otehrwise as I remember the herald was
just dropped. As for the diesels, I agree that the later green
units from the 1970s on were a lighter green. As a matter of fact
I think that Floquil S. green is the lighter version whereas
Scalecoat and Modelflex are slightly darker. Also, I was told by
an old hogger once that even the Scalecoat is too light meaning
the original may ahve been as dark as the green originally used on
the Atlas RS3s.
Larry Puckett
09/04/98
The circular herald was discontinued in the late fifties or early sixties.
The SOUTHERN road name, in the block style, was used on boxcars.
TrainMaster of Montgomery had a two car set in this style several years ago.
This sparse lettering was enhanced with the "SERVES THE SOUTH" slogan during
the sixties. "SUPER CUSHION SERVICE" also appeared on the cushioned
underframe cars.
Now, if some manufacturer could be convinced that there was a Southern
lettering style between the circular herald and the green dot scheme, this
modeler would be much happier
David Payne
11/25/98
While the builder's photos show what appears to be a painted sheet metal
nose herald, it looks like the Southern very early on had bronze, raised
lettering medallions manufactured (lettering, etc. painted Sylvan
Green). Thus for the forties, two stripe version, the herald background
needs to be bronze instead of imitation gold.
Jack
12/02/98
I have some unsolved questions about the finish or Southern Ry. Locomotives
and its evolution in time.
From the messages and personal documents, I now know the following data :
Steam locomotives :
Freight and passenger locomotives until the end of the twenties (precise
date needed): Black with white letters and numbers.
Passenger locomotives since the late twenties :
Green boiler and cab with graphite smoke box and black cab roof wheel base
and wheels black. Numbers, filets and letters gold (this sceme seems to have
been retained up to the demise of steam in 1953)
Freight locomotives up to (information needed) black with white letters and
numbers.
Freight locomotives since (information needed) up to the demise of steam in
1953 : black with Dulux (yellow) letters and numbers
Diesel locomotives :
Passenger locomotives :
Fancy scheme of metallic gray (to imitate aluminum) and green with gold trim
numbers and letters (it seems that this scheme was used only for a small
period prior to WW 2)
Fancy scheme with the aluminized paint replaced by off white, since WW 2 up
to (precise information needed) 1948 -50 onwards (in "Southern Ry in Color")
Morning sun publisher, there are photos of E and F models in passenger
service, both dated 1948, that present this scheme and the next one ? ? ?
Green passenger scheme : Off white band at the base of the cab and on the
scalloped design on the nose with gold trim and gold numbers and letters of
small size. From 1948 ( ?, information needed) up to at least 1959.
Black passenger scheme : green paint of the preceding scheme replaced by
black and off white seemingly more gray, gold letters and numbers of a
bigger format a few time after the scheme was adopted. From 1959 (paint) and
? (information needed) for the letters and numbers dimensions.
Green scheme revival on " Crescent " E 8’s : during the late 60’s or the
early seventies ( ?) a return to green paint (and original off white ?)
instead of black but with " black scheme " letters and numbers and "
Crescent " logo on the nose. Only for those machines.
Freight locomotives :
Original finish in all black ( ? ?) from prior WW 2 (seems to have concerned
only early switchers and FT’s) with white letters and numbers.
Green and off white scheme with same design for cab units as per passenger
locomotives but gold trim, numbers and letters in Dulux (imitation gold).
Switchers and road switchers didn’t have scalloped nose design but a simple
off white band trimmed in Dulux at the base of the hood, everything under
the hood proper being finished in black. From ? (information needed) to 1959
at least (some mechines remaining in this scheme prior repainting some years
after).
Black scheme : As per preceding green schemes, but black replacing green,
off white being grayer and Dulux " yellow " being replaced by imitation
gold. It seems that on newer hood units the round Southern Ry. Logo was
omitted from a certain period, big format letters and numbers appearing
after the first units were repainted in black scheme and Southern lettering
being more and more frequently replaced when a new merger occurs by the
original indication (like Central of Georgia for example)...
So I have a double question : did I miss some evolution and which one and
what are the precise dates of the schemes (and eventual era overlap)?
Then, concerning the Alco DL 109 -110’s locomotives, I suspect they never
carried other schemes than the Fancy ones (variant 1 and 2) during their
career in Sou. Ry. Service as they were traded in to Alco in 1952 for the
same number of PA 2 units. Am I right ?
FPW (François Paul WEILL)
12/02/98
Dear FPW--Forgive me my directness but, first let me ask who is FPW and why
are you afraid to use your name???? I thought Jim had banned this on the
list.
Now in answer to your questions. To my knowledge ALL Southern steam locos
had metallic gold lettering up to the mid 1930's (Jack verify the date
please). Most of the passenger locos were green above the walkways with
graphite firebox and smokebox whereas freight units were blak with graphite.
When the first E6s and Dl108/109 units were deliverd in 1941 they came with
a metallic silver and green scheme with yellow stripes, numerals, and
lettering NOT metallic gold. Within a few months after delivery the metallic
silver was replaced with imitation aluminum (light gray)--this scheme was
used on ALL passenger units including a batch of F3s up to mid 1958. Freight
diesel locos during that time came in black with imitation and yellow
stripes and numerals/letters.
In 1949 the paint scheme for ALL locos was changed to green, imitation
aluminum, and yellow stripes, numerals and lettering and the passenger
scheme was simplified. Yes even the DL108/109s were repainted in this scheme
too. In mid 1958 (exact date varies with loco type) the new black, imitation
aluminum and metallic gold stripes, numerals, and lettering scheme was
adopted and heralds were discontinued. Only two PA3s made it into this
shceme. This scheme remained essentially the same for all locos up to the
merger into NS. Around 1968 the stylized wheel on a rail herald had been
adopted.
In 1972 when Southern opted out of Amtrak they decided as a public relations
ploy to repaint the E8s and about 6 FP7s in a green, imitation aluminum and
metallic gold stripes, lettering and numerals scheme--this remained the
passenger scheme until the end of passenger operations in 1979. In the
mid-1970s (maybe 1975) Southern switched from metallic gold stripes,
lettering, and numerals to a dulux gold (mustard yellow) on freight locos.
It is common to see photos of units with metallic gold heralds and the
dulux gold lettering and stripes--Southern must have had a lot of gold
heralds in the supply room. When you visit the NC Transportation museum you
will see that the NS shops erred when they painted the E8 using dulux gold
stripes, lettering, and numerals.
OK FPW I think that answers all your questions.
Larry J. Puckett
12/02/98
Larry,
I don't have any hard dates for the lettering change on steam
locomotives, but the change from gold leaf to Dulux gold for passenger
cars took place on 2/1/1934. The timing appears related to the
country's partial abandonment of the gold standard, so I would assume
the same economics came into play for the steam locomotive lettering.
FPW,
What sources do you have for the early Southern steam locomotive
lettering to be white? I always believed it to be gold leaf, but I am
open to any information that proves my assumptions wrong.
Jack Wyatt
12/03/98
Hi Jack,
My one and only reference to a white lettering on Southern steamers come
from Walthers HO scale decal reference explicitely quoting the color as
white and the fact that someone on the board explained the original freight
diesel black livery from the one used by freight steamers at that time. As
more than one message refered to the white lettering used on those early
diesels, I was simply convinced that at a time white was used too on freight
steamers until dulux replaced it... The question remains what were Walthers
references ?
François Paul WEILL
12/03/98
First I want to apologize for using my initials as a signature... I had no
intention to remain anonymous... But just a precision, I'm French and I have
more than one time experienced with American friends the mispelling of my
name :)). So this is my complete identity : François (means Franck in
English) Paul WEILL (notice that the letter "ç" even does not exist in the
English alphabet and just doesn't pass through plain text messages... It's
pronounciation is identical to an "s" in English). So I suggest I use Franck
instead from now on (if everybody agrees). For the rest I agree with Jim and
feel at ease on SEMRA...
>To my knowledge ALL Southern steam locos had metallic gold lettering up to
the mid 1930's (Jack verify the date please). Most of the >passenger locos
were green above the walkways with graphite firebox and smokebox whereas
freight units were black with graphite..
I remember that it is following a visit in Europe of Southern President of
the time that he decided the passenger locomotives to be so painted (I
suspect the two green scheme of passenger coaches that died within a few
years to depression may also have been influenced by this trip).
If you are right concerning the gold (then Dulux) lettering, I must consider
Walthers decal reference (in HO from their catalog) concerning Southern
steam locomotives explicitely qualified as white as a mistake from the firm.
Then for what reason white was choosen as lettering color for early black
diesels (someone put on the board black was choosen in reference to the
freight steamer usual livery) instead of Dulux ?
>In 1949 the paint scheme for ALL locos was changed to green, imitation
aluminum, and yellow stripes, numerals and lettering and the >passenger
scheme was simplified. Yes even the DL108/109s ...
Do I err, it seems to me it was DL 109 (A units) and Dl 110 (B units) ?
Anyway I'm a bit puzzled. If you refer to Southern Ry. in Color, you'll find
photos taken in 1948 at Ivy City in Sept 1948 in correct "Fancy scheme"
(second variant), one E6 A + E7 B couple and one F3 A + F3 B (passenger
equiped units) on page 8 and a picture of an E 7 A leading the "Tennessean"
in Charlotte on page 10 which is allegedly dated April 1948... in the "green
scheme" !?... Notice also that the SR logo is in much degraded but obviously
golden background on the E 6 A and on a pristine but as golden background as
on the preceding one on the E7 A, but in a yellow background on the F3 A !?
>... were repainted in this scheme too...
I was unable to locate any picture of these machines with the - then - new
scheme (green livery). As (and you mentioned it further in your message the
new black livery was not applied to all the fleet overnight after mid 58, I
was just wondering if the retirement of these units being scheduled, SR did
bother to repaint them... Do you have any pictorial evidence of this
repainting or witness confirming it ?
>In mid 1958 (exact date varies with loco type) the new black, imitation
aluminum and metallic gold stripes, numerals, and lettering scheme was
>adopted and heralds were discontinued. Only two PA3s made it into this
shceme...
So you confirm they were PA 3's and not PA 2's... In accordance to the
specifications mentioned in Kalmbach's Diesel Cyclopedia and on the contrary
to what is mentioned in "Southern Ry. in color" or is it the consequence of
the Southjern naming them PA 2's for an unknown reason and Alco naming them
PA 3's in the production list ?
>... This scheme remained essentially the same for all locos up to the
merger into NS. Around 1968 the stylized wheel on a rail herald had been
adopted...
Thanks for all your very interesting comments Larry. hope I won't bother you
too much with my supplementary requests...
Friendly.
François Paul Weill (a.k.a. Franck)
12/03/98
François, the Walthers decal catalogs and references are infamous for
being inaccurate or just plain wrong. I do not trust them at all.
Craig Zeni
12/03/98
Whatever they used on the sides of their units for lettering was highly
reflective-as attested to ny several night time flash pictures where the
SOUTHERN really stood out-and this included the nose rail/wheel emblem-but
when this faded, it turned sort of orange-red
Jack Parker
12/03/98
I suspected Walthers might be the source. They probably used a black
and white photo as the basis for their statement. Walthers apparently
does not do much updating on their decal reference. Back in the
mid-sixties, when I was a teenager, I bought my first HO model of a
Southern steam engine, a Fuji Sou. Rwy version USRA 0-8-0. I made three
mistakes in painting it - used Floquil grimy black, decaled in with the
Walther's Sou. Rwy. steam locomotive set, and painted the cab
roof red. The first two mistakes were promptly pointed out by the older
modelers around town. It took me a while to find out about the third
mistake.
You being from France, how did you find out the Southern Rwy. and what
attracted you to it? I saw in another post that you are in N-scale and
are attracted to the area around Rockwood, TN. That area offers some of
the best scenery possiblities in the Southeast, and the circa 1950
operations with the Southern and the Tennessee Central are pretty good
too.
If you are interested in learning more about the Southern, I suggest
that you join the Southern Railway Historical Association and order any
back issues of their magazine, Ties, that have articles that appeal to
you. They have been trying to document the various classes of Southern
steam locomotives, so the magazines are a good and economical source for
photographs. Lettering diagram books for diesels and freight cars are in
the planning stages.
Jack Wyatt
12/03/98
I believe that the Southern had bronze medallions made for their E6
A-units. In the picture, much of the paint appears to have worn off of
the raised part and the bronze appears tarnished. The heralds are
painted on the other units pictured.
Jack Wyatt
12/03/98
To further add to this thread, I am looking at an Old Walthers decal
catalog titled "521 Prototype Lettering Diagrams" . This was first
copyrighted in 1942. I quote from page 40 of this book "Southern diagram 1
gold" I have used a few of these decals for lettering Southern Steam
engines and I can attest to the fact they were gold. I must surmise the
proof readers in whatever reference you are quoting didn't do their job.......
Could you give us the exact Walthers publication to which you refer?
Craig Zeni is correct when he says not to trust Walthers catalogs. I don't
know if the one from which I quote is correct either. Princes book on
Southern RR engines(all steam) only refers to gold lettering. He collected
his data from the railroad and is usually accurate......
hosam
12/03/98
Francois--many Walthers decals are know for their inaccuracies. I think that
many were made in the early days and they were based on B&W photos. The only
Walthers decal set I would use for Southern is the early black and white
switcher one.
Larry J. Puckett
12/03/98
I went back through my old copies of Prototype Modeler and found two
articles by J. C. Paschall, Jr. on Southern Locomotives. The June 1978
article covers painting and lettering colors and schemes. The June 1979
covers the M class Mikes. The only decal set mentioned is Champ EH-32
and E-32, nothing about Walthers.
Hope this can be helpful to someone.
Harry Chaney
12/03/98
>>In 1949 the paint scheme for ALL locos was changed to green
>imitation aluminum, and yellow stripes, numerals and lettering and the
>passenger scheme was simplified. Yes even the DL108/109s ...
The diesels originally were silver and green but that was very
shortlived. I was told that the paint was not very stable by a guy at
the Southern research office ion Alex, Va. The choice of silver
probably was due to a couple reasons. (1) the self-propelled motor
cars (Goldenrod, Fighting Joe Wheeler, etc.) were painted in green and
silver, and (2) the one streamlined pacific no. 1380 assigned to the
Tennessean originally was in the green and silver. These were
repainted in the imitation aluminum (lilght gray) probably about the
same time it was done on the diesels. Jack Wyat has even suggested
that the first FTs may have been in black and silver and I'm almost
positive that the first diesel switchers were on black and silver.
Notice that this is the paint scheme that Athearn uses on the SW7 cow
and calf.
>Do I err, it seems to me it was DL 109 (A units) and Dl 110 (B units)
>>... were repainted in this scheme too...
Southern had DL108s, 109s, 110s. There were only minor differences
among these. I think the photo of the E7 in 1948 is incorrect. There
are other errors in that book and the Withers book too! Southern used
different materials for the heralds. Early ones were on a bronze metal
plate with the bare metal as the background so it oxidized and fade
over time. Painted or decaled heralds varied in size, color and
configuration during that entire period. (I see I'm going to have to
break down and do an article on this whole topic).
There is a photo of the DL108s in the simple green scheme in the new
Withers book. I have colro photos of 2 PA3s in the black scheme and
both are in the Southern Color book. One shows a PA with the small
yellow lettering and stripes and the other shows one with the large
metallic gold lettering and stripes.
>So you confirm they were PA 3's and not PA 2's... In accordance to
>the specifications mentioned in Kalmbach's Diesel Cyclopedia and on the
>contrary to what is mentioned in "Southern Ry. in color" or is it the
>consequence of the Southjern naming them PA 2's for an unknown reason and
>Alco naming them PA 3's in the production list ?
For some reason about 4 years ago some people started referring to
PA3s as PA2s because ther was little external difference among the
units originally referred to as PA1s and PA2s. I still call a PA3 a
PA3.
Franck--glad to answer any and all questions, otherwise I wouldn't be
here. Besides the origin of Puckett is Pouqet or Poquet. Family legend
is we were French Hugonots who escaped to England and then a few
generations late migrated to Virginia (about 1640). While in England
the name became Pocket then later was changed to Pucket or Puckett in
Virginia.
Larry Puckett
12/03/98
By the way, Champ offers their Southern steam decals in 2 versions one
in the bronze gold and the other in the dulux gold (mustard yellow).
Use the bronze gold for pre-1935 and dulux for post 1935.
Larry J. Puckett
12/03/98
BTW, in case I"ve missed it, the past few (many) issues of the SRHA Ties
magazine devoted to the Mikes, Pacifics, Mountains, etc, have quite a bit
of detail on how the engines were painted, and any divisional differences.
Back issues can still be had.
Curtis Fortenberry
01/21/99
That reminds me... would anyone care to affirm or dispute my claim that
Southern had at least one set of FTs painted aluminum, not the later cream
color? That pic on p.292 in Diesels of the Southern Railway looks to have
a more metallic sheen than any of the other FTs in that book, and that set
(6101) was delivered two months after the last E6As.
David Thompson
01/21/99
David--although many of us suspect that this is true and it has been a
long held belief and rumor, we have not been able to find any
documented proof or color photos to confirm this. It would be
consistent with Southern practice from the time as well. The early
switchers had aluminum letters and heralds (the Athearn SW7 paint job
is a good example), the self-propelled cars were originally green and
silver, the first couple E6 sets were green and silver, and the
streamlined PS4 was probably green and silver. I'm sure that we
eventually will run across some obscure reference in correspondence or
maybe a long lost EMC paint reference but for now it's all hot air.
Larry J. Puckett
01/21/99
I suspect the second set of FT's, with A's numbered 6101 and 6105,
delivered 7/25/41, also was aluminum. The picture of them on P.292 in
Withers' Diesels of the Southern Railway 1939-1982 appears to have that
metallic sheen. By the time third and four sets in the 6800 series were
delivered in July 1942, the aluminum paint probably had been dropped.
Jack Wyatt
11/14/99
Could someone give me the dates when the Southern Railway used the Black
Tuxedo color scheme for their diesels? I seem to recall reading that they
were originally black, then green, then returned to black?
Also, what were the dates for the green scheme?
Allen Cain
11/14/99
You are correct regarding the sequence of Southern's paint schemes. The
original FTs were delivered in black and aluminum with dulux gold trim. The
aluminum proved far too costly to repaint, so it was quickly replaced by the
imitation aluminum (often referred to as "off-white"). The F3s were delivered
black, although some of the steam-equipped ones got repainted into the
double-stripe green passenger scheme about a year after delivery. The first
F7s arrived in May 1949 in the green and imitation aluminum. All of the
older FTs and F3s were eventually repainted into this scheme. Around 1958,
the color was shifted back to black. In each of these eras there was a wide
variety of lettering and number placements - refer to photos! In the late
1970s, two of the FP7s were repainted green (I believe they were 6133 &
6141). Three more of the FP7s received the green before the rest were
retired.
Tom Alderman
11/15/99
Let me reinforce what Tom Alderman said. However, remember from 1958
Southern repainted the diesel fleet into the black-and-white "Tuxedo" paint
scheme, BUT only the passenger E-8 units and four FP7's got repainted into
green-and-white-and gold paint! The Geeps and SD's stayed black into the NS
era.
Alton Lanier
11/16/99
Alton and Tom are correct; however there were 5 SR FP7A repainted in the
later green/imit.alum./gold scheme, not 4. 6133 & 6141 were done 1st for the
Skyland Special, both were named for signers of the Declaration of
Independence, just like the E8A's (both were named for NC signers since the
train ran in NC, so they duplicated the names on 2 of the E8A's).
Ultimately, 3 more were done, to provide additional flexibility for the
excursion program as well as additional special train power for E&O trains,
inspection trains, Kentucky Derby specials, etc. I cannot positively recall
the other 3 numbers, but think they were 6138, 6144, 6147 (corrections
appreciated if I got these numbers wrong - I don't have access to my roster
materials at work). 6133 was donated to Spencer as 6133. The other 4 became
NS# 3496, 3497, 3498, 3499 because of number conflicts with x-N&W SD40-2's
in the 6100's, but retained SR green paint and lettering. Two went to the My
Old Kentucky Home dinner train on RJCorman out of Bardstown, KY. I believe
the other 2 went to the New Georgia RR in Atlanta. Of course, 6133 is one of
the regular engines at Spencer and has been restored to her as-delivered
paint scheme.
Bob Graham
12/07/99
Having accumulated several of the Stewart FT units and just now getting
around to detailing them a question pops up.
Looking at pictures of the units which were delivered black and later
repainted in green the numbers for the "A" units are very clear. The
problem is the "B" units and the other "A" unit in an A-B-B-A set. In
"Diesels of the Southern Railway 1939-1982" the rosters give the original
numbers as 4102A, 4102B, 4102C and 4102D. Now the pictures only show an
"A" unit with 4102, the "B" units don't seem to carry a number. The
question is what was the number carried by the other "A" unit? Or are
these the numbers carried when they were black and when repainted were the
numbers 4102, 4302, 4310 and 4111??
Another question were any numbers applied to the ends opposite the "F" end.
Did the "B" units have an "F" end and was it labeled??
Take Care,
hosam
12/07/99
I seem to remember that they came as an ABBA set so the ABCD sequence
should reflect that configuration--in olther words 4102D would be the other
A-unit. Have you checked the FT book published by Withers, it has a lot of
good info like that? When in the as delivered black scheme I don't remember
the B-units having a number or roadname on them since they were part of a
single "locomotive". They did eventually get a number and roadname after
being painted into the green scheme. I may have covered some of this in my
article in the Nov 96 issue of MRG. The only way to confirm the "F" location
and numbering would be to get paint diagrams from Eichelberger or talk to
Marvin Black
Larry Puckett
12/07/99
While talking about Southern FT's, one subtlety that most people miss is
that the imitation aluminum band is not as wide on the original black
scheme as it is with the post 1949 green and later black scheme. If you
look at some pictures it will be obvious.
Jack Wyatt
12/07/99
Marvin Black is definitely the one to talk to. Hopefully he will get his
book on the history of Southern Rwy. diesels out some day and unravel
the mystery for us. The FT's are not so simple as ABBA. Case in point -
the FT consisting of sections 4105A, 4105B, 4105C, and 4105D, delivered
12/22/44 was AAAA. The B, C, and D sections got renumbered several times
as the sets they ran with got rearranged. With all the confusion that
ensued, I think around 1945, Southern started assigning individual unit
numbers.
If you are doing an early set, I think the A's would show the same
number (suffix was only on number inside the cab) and B unit does not
show a number. The question of the "F" for front end on the B-units I
can't answer.
Jack Wyatt
12/07/99
My thanks to all who responded. For now I will go on the assumption that
when the original Black units 4102A, 4102B, 4102C and 4102D were repainted
they were also renumbered as 4102, 4302, 4310 and 4111. They may or may
not have stayed together, but that is the way I would like to model them,
as a set.
The question remains where were the numbers placed on the "B" units?
I guess I should know Eichelberger or Marvin Black but have never been
introduced to either. Is there an email address or where can I make contact?
I started my quest with the excellent article by Larry Puckett in the
November 1997 issue of Model Railroading pages 36-43. This is an excellent
article with quite a bit of number information. Here is where I began to
question the number placement. There is 6 excellent pictures of various
combinations of A and B units. No numbers or an F mark show on any "B" unit.
Progressed from there to the "The Revolutionary Diesel EMC's FT" by
Diesel Era. The only "B" units shown here are the Heater Car 52 and a
radio control car 992515. The other pics no number or F mark can be seen
on the "B" units.
From there I opened the "Diesels of the Southern Railway 1939-1982" by
Withers Publishing . Pages 290-300 cover the A & B units. Cannot find any
numbers or F mark on the flanks of the "B" units.
The "F" or front of the "B" units must be the blank end where a cab would
be if it were an "A" unit. Or looking down on top the end without a fan
opening would be the front.
I have decided to number my A-B-B-A set as follows 4102-no number-no
number and 4111.
Another thing I noticed was the firemans window seems to be a bit smaller
than the engineers window. Looking at pictures in the three references
above reveals this.
Jack Wyatt mentioned that the as delivered black scheme had a narrower
white stripe than the green units. An examination of the pictures shows
the stripe to run below the second step on the body of the black and just
above the second step on the green units. Excellent spotting Jack! Then
he tried to confuse me again with his post on "The FT's are not so simple
as ABBA. Case in point -
the FT consisting of sections 4105A, 4105B, 4105C, and 4105D, delivered
12/22/44 was AAAA." Then added "If you are doing an early set, I think the
A's would show the same number (suffix was only on number inside the cab)
and B unit does not show a number." If you do an early black set as above
all "A" units would carry the same number??? No surprise the Southern
renumbered these animals....!
Bill Cox said in his post he had some paint diagrams at home and would
check on the numbering and "F" location on the "B" units.
Despite all I have said about pictures, even they are not the whole
answer to some of these puzzles :)
Take Care,
hosam
12/07/99
I looked at all the photos I have (including issues of Ties Magazine from
the '40's and could find no photos showing numbers on the sides of FT-B
units. I did, however, notice that the number appears on the ends of the
unit to the left of the door.
Bob Hanson
01/15/00
When they were green (from delivery until 1958 when the black repainting
began) the F7Bs had Southern on the side and no road number except a tiny
(2") number on the rear side lower corner, and the numbers on the ends.
Larger side numbers appeared in the later black era.
Bill Cox
01/19/00
Just a fortnight ago I asked the same question except I wondered if the
"B" units carried a road number. Well the "B" units had Southern on the
sides, road numbers are on the ends about three ribs high on both sides on
both ends.
I've seen pics of the Southern low on sides and higher uo just under the
grilles. All in the Green scheme.....
hosam
01/19/00
The EMD Painting and Styling diagram #8147702 for Southern F7B shows an
11'4" long SOUTHERN in 7" high lettering centered between the doors.
Someone should ask did you also want to know the as delivered location and
subsequent relocation or just if there was lettering on the B units?
Ron Sebastian
00/21/00
Larry and anyone else who may know,
Since you mentioned silver as a possible color for the original Southern
switcher lettering (although I always thought it was white), what about the
original, as delivered E6 paint? Was it an actual shiny aluminum, that was
replaced by the imitation aluminum soon after, and if so why? I have never
received a positive answer to this question...and only very early pictures
seem to show it as shiny. As Southern loved to retouch photos, I've just
never been sure I was really seeing it right. Oh, and if the E6s had it,
did the DL109s?
Bill Cox
00/22/00
I don't have a photo, but I have an EMD print of an artists rendition of an
E-6 A-B from 1941 and the units are definitely green and WHITE. I also have
a paint diagram of a DL-109/110 which indicates white paint. I have seen
nothing to indicate that the units were painted silver.
Bob Hanson
00/22/00
For a picture of the Southern DL109/110's in aluminum, see the May 1978
issue of Trains. The date of the photo is given as August 1941, IIRC,
but documentary evidence and the location suggests that it is actually a
year later. I have a diagram that shows aluminum for the DL109/110's,
but has a note about paint substitution. The EMD advertisement for E6's
in the 1941 Locomotive Cyclopedia sure had a metallic sheen in the
artwork depicting the Southern engines. Southern originally used
aluminum on the FM motorcars in the late thirties, and even put aluminum
painted heralds on some boxcars, so I would not be surprised if the
earliest diesel switcher had aluminum lettering and striping. I am still
looking for conclusive evidence on the switchers. I have seen evidence
of the other things mentioned. WWII quickly brought an end to the use of
aluminum paint.
Jack Wyatt
00/22/00
Several years ago, I was priveleged to see a collection of original
Kodachromes from Leonard Rice of Washington, D.C. These included rare views
of ACL, SAL, and SR passenger diesels shot in 1940 and 1941 in their
"original" as-delivered schemes! Leonard was present at Washington Union
Station when "The Southerner" was on display. I saw three different views of
the 2800 E6 and it was clearly silver (aluminum) in all three views. I would
not venture to rely on this were it a print or even a first generation
duplicate, but these were original Kodachromes taken at three different
angles. I have photographed many E and F units on the Southern with
Kodachrome over the years, and I've never obtained this color in any of my
slides, sunny, cloudy, day or night. I asked Shelby Lowe if he recalled the
appearance of these engines, and he recalled that they were indeed silver.
He also recalled that when Southern went to repaint the units two years
later, the paint was priced at $98 per gallon - that's 1942/43 dollars!!!
Southern quickly requested a discount substitute for the metallic silver, and
received the familiar Imitation Aluminum that really looked like off-white.
Shelby confirmed that the Alco DLs also wore the silver at first, but he
couldn't recall if the silver was used on the 6100 FTs.
I know this still isn't proof, but like the guys who've actually seen UFOs,
I've seen the Kodachromes and I'm convinced.
For those planning to attend the get-together in Savannah, Ga. on March 24,
I'll be there and will bring my 1st generation duplicates of all of the
Leonard Rice slides for those interested. These include other controversial
shots, such as ACL E3s with silver ends instead of purple, and great shots of
the SAL E4s.
-Tom Alderman
00/23/00
Thank you. I think you've finally convinced me that I wasn't just seeing
things all these years. It is hard to tell in black & white photos, but I
do have a color shot at Washington Union Station showing the silver on an
E6. It didn't look retouched, and you've convinced me it wasn't. It is
interesting that ACL and several other roads stuck with the silver, and
Southern didn't.
Bill Cox
00/23/00
I have color slides of the original Tennessean locos taken by Bob May's
father during the inauguration run and they definitely were silver. In
addition I interviewed Jim Hutson who was in charge of paint at the Southern
Research Lab in Alexandria until his retirement around 1983. He confirmed to
me that the paint originally was silver but thought the change was due to
problems with stability of the pigment
Larry Puckett
00/23/00
Are you sure about that? Look at the picture on page 24 of the Diesel
Era's "The Revolutionary Diesel, EMC's FT". The F2 definitely has a
different paint than the FT's that it is coupled to. Also on page 23, FT
set 304 and 304-B, though a B&W picture, does not show the same metallic
sheen that the picture below shows.
I'm not an ACL expert, but I'm convinced the ACL had the same trouble
with wartime procurement of aluminum paint. They just went back after
the war.
Jack Wyatt
00/23/00
ACL's diesel painting diagrams indicate Imitation aluminum, not silver.
Warren Calloway
00/23/00
If ACL paint diagrams specified Imitation Aluminum, was it the same paint
(Dupont number) as Southern's Imitation Aluminum? The paint used on SR
never really looked like aluminum, but the ACL units actually looked silver.
Was the Imitation Aluminum specified by ACL for the entire purple era
(1939-1957)?
-Tom Alderman
00/24/00
If it was covered before, I wasn't here then either. In fact I still have
two questions someone who knows can perhaps answer. We've established that
Southern's E6s and DL109/110s were originally delivered with aluminum paint.
Did the FTs ever have it, or had the decision to go with the less expensive
paint already been made? Larry Puckett suggested that possibly the first
switchers lettering and stripes may have also been aluminum, were they?
Bill Cox
02/18/99
Now while we are discussing paint I have a couple questions. These are
generalized questions so may not be true for all cars. The time frame I'm
concerned with is 1945-1970 roughly....
1. Were the underframes on rolling stock painted black?
2. Were trucks generally black or painted to match color of car?
3. Were things like wheels and couplers never painted due to rules?
4. What color was the inside of boxcars?
5. What color were the roofs and walkways?
6. Were the bottoms of tank cars always painted black?
7. Were cabooses/cabin cars/waycars always painted red?
hosam
02/18/99
Here's my understanding regarding these questions:
1. Were the underframes on rolling stock painted black?
I don't know, probably painted the color of the car on repaints (if
repainted at all) because it would be easier than having multiple colors to
paint per car.
On the other hand, weathering is going to make the undersides a dark color
(dirt,oil,grease, smoke in the right era) regardless of it's original paint
color. Not many prototype photos and not much of it seen on models, so paint
'em dark, weather 'em, and don't worry.
2. Were trucks generally black or painted to match color of car?
Most trucks seem to have been painted dark prior to weathering, but clearly
some cars had the truck frames painted to match the car (the NC&StL
boxcar--currently Intermountain offers an HO model) for example appears in
all the prototype photos I've seen to have truck frames painted the same
boxcar reddish color as the body. Most Southern boxcars seem to have dark
truck frames. A lot of covered hoppers in the more modern era seems to have
truck frames painted the body color. Look at prototype photos is only
answer here.
3. Were things like wheels and couplers never painted due to rules?
I believe I've read in numerous modeling articles that wheels were left
unpainted to allow defects like cracks to be found on inspection. I'm
guessing that's the same with knuckles. In addition, with knuckles the wear
and tear of coupling would polish off most paint in days or months anyway,
so why waste the money on paint?
4. What color was the inside of boxcars?
I have no idea, some had "nailable" floors and sides, some had wood, some
had special fittings. Each might have a different material and thus a
different color/paint pattern. I'd say look for proto photos but I know how
rare they are. Ask someone who worked with them.
5. What color were the roofs and walkways?
Wooden walkways appear to be painted the body color on cabs and the few
boxcars I've seen in color photos, though the paint would wear to bare wood
color on older paint jobs. Some types of cars or some railroads might have
used black generically on roofs. I think prototype photos are the answer
since no one answer will do.
6. Were the bottoms of tank cars always painted black?
No idea at all.
7. Were cabooses/cabin cars/waycars always painted red?
Most were, but not all. There were yellow Chessie System and Blue Conrail
cabs that I can recall off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure the Boston
and Maine had some Blue cabs in the modern era. I even seem to recall some
gray Family Lines cabs, but that could be a failure of my brain cells.
Short answer: no.
Not much in the way of concrete answers, but that's because a lot of these
questions have an answer of "it depends, check photos of car you wish to
model."
Dave Bott
02/18/99
I worked at Pullman in the late 1970s so I can tell you what was the practice
at that time. I model the 40s and have done some research on that time
frame, so lets start.
1. Each railroad spelled out what their paint specifications were and
depending on those determined the color of the underframe. C&O called for
black underbodies on all their house cars in their specifications. Depending
upon which railroad you're trying to duplicate, you should really get a copy
that railroads paint specs.
2. Trucks usually were cast side frames and were a natural black.
3.Wheels and couplers were never painted due to usage which would quickly
wear the paint off anyway.
4. Until the advant of the exterior post box car, the insides of the cars
were natural wood. With advent of the exterior post cars the walls were bare
metal and the floors were coated with an anti-skid material that was usually
gray.
5. Again you have to look at the paint specifications for the different
railroads. C&O spelled out that the roof, ends and walkways were all painted
black until about 1948.
After that the cars, ends and walkways were painted brown.
6. Tank cars weren't always black. Anchor had solid gray cars, Union
Carbide had red and yellow bottoms, Gulf tank cars were solid blue, Pure Oil
tanks were yellow and the list goes on.
7. Nope. Toward the end of the time frame you mention, the C&O had gone to
yellow for all their cabooses. With the advent of the extended vison
caboose, they went to blue. The N&W had blue cabooses in anticipation of its
merger with C&O back in the late 60s. If I'm not mistaken I seem to remeber
the NH as having orange cabooses and the L&N having gray ones.
Larry Smith
02/18/99
If you are speaking only of SAL. here are my answers.
1. Yes, sort of, the underframes were sprayed w ashpalt car cement, which
was dark gray/black.
2. Also sprayed with the car cement.
3. Wheel and couplers were never painted. Until the mid fifties ends and
roof were car cement. After that time, were painted with the car color
paint.
4. Some unpainted, many light gray.
5. see #3.
6. All SAL tanks were painted either totally black or pullman green(MofW
service).
7. On SAL. yes, always red.
Warren Calloway
02/18/99
Warren--is this a general statement or just SAL cars? If this is true
then all those cars the manufacturers have been turning out for years
should have gray/black roofs and ends! We've got a lot of painting to
do!
3. Wheel and couplers were never painted. Until the mid fifties ends
and roof
were car cement. After that time, were painted with the car color
paint.
Larry J. Puckett
02/18/99
4. Natural wood until the nailable steel came along, then white. Also white
on the cars with anchors.
6. I've seen many all white (for at least the first trip). and lately all
Blue or all red (KCS likes these)
7. S&A painted their cabs white with red ends, B&O used blue cabs, and Pennsy
vans were? DGLE? Certainly not RED
yes, forgot a few on #7. B&M were blue, PC was Awful green, C&O yellow
(Chessie sytem too),ICG orange-white, CR blue, C&G grey, Meriden and Bigbee
blue, BN green.
Jack Parker
03/18/99
Here's a good one for you paint experts out there.
I am putting the finishing touches on a scratchbuilt 1918 SRR camp car, as
illustrated in the MOW standards, vol 2, published by SHRA. Now all I need
to do is paint and letter it. Specification #8 governing the conversion of
the camp cars from old SR box cars, states the following:
Both exterior and interior of cars to be painted Section House Body
Color, SRR Spec 46A. .... Exterior and interior trim to be givien two
coats of Section House Wainscot Color, SRR Spec 47A.
Spec 46A:
Pigment by weight:
Hydrated Carbonate of Lead.....40-44%
Zinc Oxide.....................40-44%
Calcium Carbonate.............. 2-5%
Tinting material......................
Inert Silicious Material........ balance
Spec 47A
Hydrated Carbonate of Lead.....36-40%
Zinc Oxide.....................36-40%
Calcium Carbonate.............. 2-5%
Tinting material......................
Inert Silicious Material........ balance
Question: What shade [ of oxide red? ] does this produce? Is there a hobby
paint, say Floquil, that comes close? Does the pigment color combo happen
to be SR Freight Car Brown? It does not need to be exact ( probably not
worth the effort ), just close or in the ballpark. I understand these cars
have changed color over the years. For my time frame of interest, I am
concerned with the original as given in the spec.
Thanks for any info.
Kenneth Selvidge
03/18/99
Kenneth--what gave you the idea these were oxide red? The important
missing component in the mixtures is the "TINTING MATERIAL" that's
what gives the color. Our club is in an old Southern depot with faded
green wainscoating and mustard yellow above that. The green is sort of
like an old mail storage box--Pullman green shade and very close to
the old MOW car shown in the Southern color guide to rolling stock.
Jack Wyatt do you know the history of MOW colors on the Southern? I
assume Kenneth is looking for info for the early part of the century
(post-1918).
Larry J. Puckett
03/18/99
Kenneth:
As Larry said the tinting material is the key, otherwise it will be gray
, i.e. zinc oxide primer color.
Don Yelverton
03/18/99
Don's point is very good too since we must ask whether the tinting
material was left off the list because they used the lead based zinc
oxide mixture as the final color or because they had another spec
sheet that covered the tinting material. Personally, I don't know but
maybe Eichelberger knows of something in the archives that can answer
it. Kenneth, why don't you call him tonight, he lives in
Marietta--just up the road from you.
Larry J. Puckett
03/18/99
I think Ralph Ward's book on Southern Stations discusses the paint schemes a
bit. So does the SR Handbook in it's captions (which I've already been
warned has frequent errors).
Southern Rails had some info on paint schemes too.
I'm pretty sure that there were a couple of major schemes but all I can pull
out of my memory are:
gray with white trim
yellow with green trim
Of course these are stations, not trackside structures. I'm betting that
the MoW stuff was gray with white trim. Looks neat and why waste money on
pigments?
Dave Bott
03/18/99
Now you see why I am not an expert. I think I got the red idea from
Riverdale Station ( hobby shop down here) when I showed it to him. I think
it was because of the Zinc Oxide? I do not know what color zinc oxide is.
Anyway, no tinting color is specified. The paint is 32% linseed oil and
drier, 68% pigment mix as described before. The drier is to be free of
benzine and rosin, if that means anything. That is about all I see on the
spec. I looked through the volume 2 to see if there was a spec on the
tinting material. There was none. I do not have volume 1, so I do not know
if it is specified there.
I think the zinc oxide left as the color is probably the best explaination.
My two photo sources, though from the mid to late '40s, show the cars in a
very light shade - which first indicated to me some type of MOW grey or
primer color.
Don - at Larry's suggestion, I tried to look you up in the Atlanta white
pages - nothing. Can you email me your phone number and a good time to call
this weekend? I see no reason to further tie up the SEMRA mail list with my
babble.
Thanks
Kenneth Selvidge
03/18/99
Zinc oxide is the stuff that lifeguards put on their noses to keep them from
burning. My guess is it is gray to gray white in color.
Dave Bott
03/18/99
I haven't really researched the MOW car color question, but I was under
the impression that back then it was gray.
Jack Wyatt
03/18/99
Kenneth--it's George Eichelberger not Don Yelverton that is the
archivist for the SRHA.
Larry J. Puckett
03/18/99
Jack and Kenneth--I do remember that in the 40s MOW structures were
all grey and for a while stations were grey with white trim as Dave
suggested. Probably a dirty gray wold be a good bet--maybe MOW
gray. I have seen a reference that said MOW equipt was silver for a
while then black. Then there's that darned color photo of a camp car
in the Southern Color guide to rolling stock etc., that is a nice
faded green with imitation gold lettering. Photo was from the early
1960s. Whichever color you use make sure to put on a light coat since
as soon as it dries we'll find out it was a different color (Murphy's
Law).
Larry J. Puckett
05/22/01
I'm trying to determine what the chronology of the paint schemes that the
NO&NE units wore. These are the FTA-FTSB-FTSB-FTA sets.
Were they delivered in black - I believe so. But what color was the trim
striping - yellow or ?? When to green? Did they get back to black?
Also - a good mix for the imitation aluminum paint?
Would prefer Scalecoat flavors but will use whatever's needed.
Craig Zeni
I'm sure others will chime in on this thread, but I'm game to throw the
first dice:
Yes, the FTs and F3s were delivered in black with imitation "dulux" gold
striping and lettering. This color appeared more yellow than the later
bronze-gold of the '60's and '70's. What we really have pondered is the
exact shade of the imitation aluminum. The earliest E6's and DL109's were
delivered in "Aluminum" paint (as opposed to Imitation Aluminum). Several of
the rare Kodachrome slides from the early 1940's support this. After much
discussion, we also think the first two quartets of FTs also might have come
in Aluminum paint (6100 A-B-C-D and 6101 A-B-C-D). These were also
renumbered rather quickly so that both A-units in each set would have their
own road numbers.
As to when they got their green paint... the last order of F3s arrived in
early 1949 still in black paint. The first F7s arrived in May 1949 in green
paint, so any repaints after May '49 would probably have been in green. I
have seen numerous photos of FTs deadlined in green paint. The NO&NE units
were gone by 1961, so they probably got scapped in green. The only FT that
I've ever seen in the 2nd black scheme was 6100 at the St. Louis Museum. It
also sported the larger F7-style number boards, but these were switched back
to the original style number boards many years ago.
Years ago, I custom-painted dozens of Southern diesels for a local Atlanta
hobby shop. The trend at that time was to use SP lettering gray for the
Imitation Aluminum, but this always looked too gray under indoor lighting.
The Southern F's and E's looked "white" when viewd in action in the Georgia
sunshine, so I always "erred" on the lighter side. I'm not starting a fight
here I know that the cab units weren't white... this was
obvious when real white was held against the nose, but gray never looked
right on the layout. I mixed reefer gray and reefer white and added several
drops of silver to add the "aluminum" glow. Some modelers insisted on adding
a single drop of yellow to the mix to avoid a bluish tint, but I never tried
this. I recommend going for a color that isn't stark white, but "looks"
white when no real white is nearby! The later road units (GP's, RS's, and
SD's) could pass with the darker SP lettering gray, but the F's (actually
nicknamed "white faces" by SR crews) need to be a little lighter. Just my
little-ole opinion....
Tom Alderman
Good morning,
Original as delivered in 1942 scheme was Black/white with gold lettering.
The debate on "aluminum" "imitation aluminum" seems to be unsettled. I
simply refer to the other color as white. The "Southern" was spaced out
which made the lettering wider than the 4 portholes. Had a large medallion
whose diameter was equal to the nose door width. Trim ring holding the
light lenses was chrome. Road number was applied in line with the Southern
lettering , below the cab windows. Anticlimber, pilot, trucks, fuel tanks
and frame were black. Vertical handrails at doors were black. Did not
have the third set of vertical handrails at rear of body, these were added
later. The white lower band passes just underneath the 4th door step at
the cab. A reflectorized gold numberboard was added, set even with the
lower edge of nose door. The "B" units had only the NO&NE applied at the
"F" inds just below the upper belt line. No Southern or raod number on the
sides. Road numbers were on the ends and on both sides.
Beginning in 1949 Southern began repainting in a Green/white scheme with
yellow lettering and trim. "Southern lettering was same as original black
scheme. The medallion was still the same size, but had changed looks a bit.
Trim ring holding the light lenses was painted white. Road number was
applied in line with the portholes, behind the cab doors. The anticlimber
appears to be silver. The pilot, trucks, fuel tanks and frame were black.
Vertical handrails at doors were green. The third set of vertical
handrails at rear of body, had been added by this time. The white lower
band passes just above the 4th door step at the cab. The reflectorized
numberboard was now black background with gold numbers.
There seems to be another version of the 1949 green/white scheme. This
scheme had the "Southern" lettering closely spaced, under the 2 center
portholes and not extending beyond the center of the 1st and 4th portholes.
The road number was moved down in line with the lettering just behind the
cab door. Other details are same as the first green/white scheme.
I don't think any of the NO&NE units made it to the 1959 black/white
repainting. They could have since they weren't retired till 1961. By this
time they had been heavily modified and no longer looked like FT units.
Probably looked like a late phase F3...
>Also - a good mix for the imitation aluminum paint?
>Would prefer Scalecoat flavors but will use whatever's needed.
As for mixing the lower color, I use Pollyscale #414179 Southern Pacific
light lettering gray straight out of the bottle. Looks good under sunlight
and warm white fluroescents. Looks too dark under cool white fluorescents
and low light incandescents. You might want to add some white if your
operating/display area is low light. If you want "Aluminum" mix some white
and silver till it suits you. I doubt that a magician could come up with a
formula that would suit the world. The SP lettering gray matches the color
on the Stewart FT's.
As for the black, I use Pollyscale engine black 414110. This looks a bit
faded when dullcoat is applied over it. Looks very black when glosscote is
applied over. I don't see much difference in the looks of the SP gray with
either top cote.
For the green I use Sylvan Green Pollyscale 414374. Looks good under
most lights. It does not match the green on Stewarts FT units. A match is
C&NW green Pollyscale 414188.
I think all these colors are made in the Scalecoats.
Are you going to build all the schemes? Sounds like a great project.
Let us know what you finally come up with
hosam
Scalecoat #10 Black and #19 Southern Green works well
for me, for both brass and plastic. I use Scalecoat
#20 MofW Gray straight out of the bottle for the
imitation aluminum. FYI - I went so far as paint a
color swatch and compare it to the 1:1 scale version;
it was a perfect match...
Barry Burton
In my custom painting days, painted over a hundred Southern diesels.
Scalecoat MofW grey was used on all. I also matched this color against the
actual paint on Southern units, with the same results-Perfect match.
Warren Calloway
Tom, does the FTB power car at theSoutheastern Railway museum(fourth one down)
count? It's black as I recall, but so hideously faded tot he point that I
can't tell what scheme it might be in...
Jeff Scarbrough
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