DISCUSSION on TANK CARS
THIS DISCUSSION WAS ON THE FREIGHTCAR LIST:
19 Feb 2002
Hi all,
After not getting much feedback on this issue a couple months ago, I
decided to either "put up or shut up". So, after first shutting up and then
going down to do some much needed research, it is now time to download. If
there is no feedback on this, I will take it that there is no interest, and
I will not follow up on this subject. And at the risk of offending people
with a big stake in this subject, sorry, I can't wait.
First, I imagine many folks are having the same difficulty that I am.
1) What kind of tank cars do I need?
2) What kinds are available?
3) How do I go about establishing an appropriate fleet?
Well, on #1, it depends where you are modeling, when, and what types of
industries are being served. It is amazing how much interesting info can be
dug up on this subject. Are there industries on-line that need to be served
by tanks cars? Chemical plants? Refineries? Distilleries? By-products
plants? Gas/Oil producers? Get a track chart, a list of industries served,
whatever! I am certain you can find some of these, and there are
undoubtedly other industries to be served on either end (off stage) of your
RR. Once you have a list of customers, you can start to figure out better
what you need.
For the vast majority, the most common tank car needed is the ARA III or
ICC 103-type car. This is a general service car built to haul things like
fuel oil, gasoline, vegetable oil, caustic soda, and the like. Things that
did NOT require high pressure, special linings or unloading features, or
manufacture of special materials (we can talk endlessly about these later if
you want). These cars generally used a steel central frame with wide
platforms beginning at the bolsters and extending to the ends. The tank
itself was cylindrical, and had a dome on top capable of absorbing 2% of the
liquid volume in expansion. They were also furnished with vents in the dome
to release gases (losing pressure) should it reach that point. These are
the cars that many have tried to model over the years, with varied success.
By the 1950's the earliest tank cars would no longer have been around,
but some early-type tanks may have been still in service. The
earliest-manufactured cars one might commonly see in interchange in the
fifties would have been either cars with tanks with four horizontal courses
(like the tank furnished in the Tichy kits, with rivet/plate boundaries at
1:30, 4:30, 7:30, and 10:30 on the circle) or vertical course tanks (where
the seams between plates run around, rather than along, the tank). On many
of these early cars, one might see the vent or vents extending from the
sides of the domes on "L"-shaped elbows. Some early tanks had quite
elaborate poling pocket or coupler pocket fixtures on the end sills, had
unusual features like odd center sills, or other components that appear
archaic now. The bottom line is, if you are modeling the 50's or 60's, you
do not need many of these cars. This is partially good news, as I
understand there are no plastic models that do this period justice. I also
understand that Overland is about to come out with a brass General American
(GATC) prototype tank car that has four (?) vertical courses. The KD brakes
would have to be replaced with AB's to fit in your time frame, however.
Still, one could justify one or two of these early ARA III tanks, albeit
weathered suitably.
The really common ARA III/ICC 103 cars you might see in the fifties were
either AC&F or GATC produced. Other tank car manufacturers had been bought
up or gone out of business, although you might have seen cars produced by
some of these earlier manufacturers still around. There aren't any plastic
models out there of these, though!
Anyway, there were loads of AC&F Type 21's (P2K model), and GATC cars (no
plastic model), the later AC&F Type 27 (Intermountain), and even later AC&F
post-war welded ICC 103-W cars (Red Caboose) around during this period.
These are easily recognizable with their 3 horizontal courses, "fat" 2%
expansion dome, 2 vents on top of the dome, unloading pipe through the
center sill, and low walkways, either of wood or rectangular grid steel.
Many were equipped with special features like dome platforms, insulation,
and other special features to suit the shipper. And if there is one truth
in tank cars, it is that almost every car is unique! Plan on making
modifications to make your tank cars match the photos.
The three models mentioned above do a nice job, although the latter two
need underbody detailing. They are, unfortunately, all AC&F prototypes, and
you really need others. GATC manufactured LOTS of their own tank cars, with
the distinctive bolster/side-end sill. There are only extremely costly
brass models to represent these in HO. Also, Union Tank Car, the
second-biggest lessor of tank cars in the country, had themselves and others
manufacture tank cars to their own design specs through this period. There
are also no plastic models of UTLX prototypes. The UTLX cars had
distinctive tank bolster pads of tapered design, placard boards on square
backgrounds, and longer than normal end platforms.
Still, we should be happy that we have these three nice AC&F prototypes.
And for those of you modeling petroleum refineries, non-regulated
commodities like corn syrup or veg oil, or caustic soda or the like, these
cars are perfect.
If you all knew everything I just said, I apologize. If there is nothing
but the sound of wind through the saloon doors, I will no longer continue
this thread. If you want to know what you have to do to model other, more
interesting tank cars, tell me.
Have a good one!
Elden Gatewood
19 Feb 2002
Elden,
A couple of comments on your research. First, you make the incorrect
assumption that everyone models in HO scale. If you think it is hard to find
tank cars of this era in HO, try N scale. Of course, Micro-Trains has a good
looking 10,000 gallon model of uncertain ancestry, and Intermountain has an
8,000 gal ACF Type 27, but beyond that one just has to sort though the junk
to find a few halfway decent models. Both Bachmann (?!) and Atlas have
imported halfway decent three dome cars. Atlas had about three different
models of the three dome tanker. Rivarossi makes a decent 10,000 gal. welded
chemical car, but it is hard to get.
But, the fifties and sixties were the time of great upheaval in the tank car
trade, especially the mid-1960's. With the advent to the 263,000 MGWR, the
20,000 gal. tank car very rapidly replaced smaller cars in all volume
movements. By rapidly, I mean just as fast as every tank car manufacturing
plant could crank the new cars out! I can recall fleets of several hundred
cars being entirely replaced within one calendar year.
There has been little enough discussion on this list lately, so keep up your
research.
Gregg Mahlkov
19 Feb 2002
Elden,
Thanks for the great information. I model 1951 and really have not spent
much time researching what industries on line used tank cars. I was smart
enough to pick up a bunch of the P2K Type 21 and Intermountain Type 27 tank
cars. What source(s) did you find for researching the tank cars? I have
the mix of products transported across my railroad's mainline during 1950
and 1951. Tank car traffic registers a low percentage of the traffic.
However, I do want to ensure that I have the correct tank cars for my year.
Kert Peterson
19 Feb 2002
You have indeed "put up," Elden. Thanks. It'll take me a while to absorb
what you wrote, and I feel like I have an assignment of my own now:
"Are there industries on-line that need to be served
by tanks cars? Chemical plants? Refineries? Distilleries? By-products
plants? Gas/Oil producers? Get a track chart, a list of industries served,
whatever! I am certain you can find some of these, and there are
undoubtedly other industries to be served on either end (off stage) of your
RR. Once you have a list of customers, you can start to figure out better
what you need."
Nobody sed this stuff was easy . . .
Schuyler G Larrabee
Subject: RE: [FC] whose tank cars of the 50's and 60's?
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002
Ned, Sam, Schuyler, Kert, Art, and all;
Thank you very much for the interesting and informative feedback! I was
gratified to hear so much, and some of the info has sent me off into doing
more looking...
It seems that one of the big questions is who had them. I have been
trying to digest some of the info in the ORER and elsewhere. Since my
interest is the 50's and 60's, and my layout is set '62-'66 (PRR Mon
Valley), I have been boiling down a '64 ORER to figure out who had what.
I can only use my own experience as an example, but given I am modeling
something specific, I got track plans, a CT1000 (list of stations and
sidings), did some research, and figured out what industries I had that used
the PRR in my era. With that info, I researched WHAT they shipped. With
that in hand, and my info on tank car types, I figured out what tank car
types I needed and in what numbers. Given that most of the industries did
not own their own tank cars (no neat billboard schemes for me except
Koppers), I had to find out who the lessors were. I got some second-hand
info on who they rented from from old employees (like PRR itself often
leased cars for their own service from UTLX). It seems that some big
industries leased from more than one lessor. So, you could probably have
groups of like-lessor cars going into one industry, and another company's in
another. That would be cool.
It will probably take me many more months to figure out how many of each
type and all that, but I can point out some things that you may find
interesting:
Big Lessors/Owners:
Allied Chemical (SPX, SSLX, GCX, ACSX, etc.) 389
First Union Properties (ACDX) 3840
Canadian General Transit (CGBX, CGTX) 4357
Olin-Mathieson (CBMX, MAWX) 84
Standard Brands (SBIX) 147
General American Pfaudler (GPEX milk tanks) 136
Cosden Petroleum (CPCX) 284
General American Transportation (ATLX, GATX 53,863
Koppers (KPCX) 514
Republic Tank Car (RTCX) 608
North American Tank Car (NATX, AESX, AGCX, etc) 8,456
Union Tank (UTLX) 50,871
You get the idea. The big lessors like Gen Am and Union Tank had more tanks
than most railroads had cars. And other than some cute schemes done for
individual lessees, most of them were black cars with reporting marks and
numbers.
There were far more tank cars running around on most railroads than
people think. I think one reason they are under-represented is that they
are not owned by the RRs, and they are difficult to model.
So, if you just want to be "representative" in a general sense, there are
some guidelines that you could follow:
In a fleet of 400 cars, you need 25-30 tank cars (7-8%)
RATIO: 5 GATX tanks, 5 UTLX tanks 2-3 SHPX tanks, 2 NATX tanks, 1 each from
your favorite to total 25-30 cars.
If you want specific, lets talk....
More later,
Elden Gatewood
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:21:04 -0500
Elden,
I would disagree with you about the number of tank cars needed in a "fleet".
By your 400 car "fleet" I assume you are talking about what you would find
on a model railroad. A modeler could get by with NO tank cars, or he could
have 75 percent of his "fleet" tank cars, depending what industries he
models on his line.
For example, PRR and WM operated a joint line in Baltimore, called the
Chesapeake & Curtis Bay, whose customers were all chemical companies and oil
refiners, so its traffic was exclusively tank cars, with a few covered
hoppers.
On the other hand, I grew up on Long Island, and I don't believe I EVER saw
a tank car in a Montauk Branch freight, nor any in Holban Yard for that
matter.
The railroad I retired from, the AN, has only two steady customers left -
one ships and receives exclusively in tank cars (Arizona Chemical) and the
other ships and receives exclusively in covered hoppers (Premier Chemicals).
There is really no such thing as a typical "fleet".
Gregg Mahlkov
22 Feb 2002
Gregg Mahlkov wrote:
>There is really no such thing as a typical "fleet".
In the sense that Gregg means it, this is exactly right. But I think the
terminology would be better if one stated that there is no "universal"
fleet. One can readily define "typical" in various appropriate ways, e.g. a
fleet containing exactly the percentage of car types of the national fleet
in 1950, and that is indeed a typical fleet in one sense. But it would only
be ACCURATE if one somehow modeled the entire U.S.
In the sense normally meant by a modeler, one would need to know a fleet
appropriate for a particular town or group of towns, in a particular month
of a particular year--maybe a particular week or even day in some cases. As
we have noted in previous discussions on this topic, this is hard to
determine. The fallback, to extrapolate from a variety of incomplete data,
leads to this problem with "typical," which may be better called the need
for a "believable" fleet.
Tony Thompson
22 Feb 2002
Indeed that is true. That is why I phrased the comment in that context. If
one is attempting to model a place and time with some degree of accuracy,
generalizations, or statistical representations do not apply. Many modelers
seem to be following this path, however, as they are not following strict
prototypical representations of reality. My own application of a tank car
fleet is crafted specifically for the place and time that I model, and is
then represented based on research indicating the type, number, historical
lessors and lessee arrangements, and of course HO tank car availability and
my ability to build what is not available commercially. The latter is of
course the biggest problem. It is far easier to kitbash a boxcar or
scratchbuild a gondola, than to (out of necessity) scratchbuild an odd
variety of tank car for which no parts might be adapted.
This brings us to the next issue, then, which is what types of tank car
does everyone think needs to be produced commercially? Does everyone want
to know more about the individual types and what service/commodities they
were assigned to? I have more info if some are interested. More later,
Elden Gatewood
22 Feb 2002
> This brings us to the next issue, then, which is what types of tank car
> does everyone think needs to be produced commercially?
> Elden
We have a few ACF cars to choose from. What we need now is GATX cars and X-3
as used by UTLX. This would cover the major car types. With the occasional
brass/scratchbuilt/or kitbashed car that would offer a reasonable variety of
cars. Some 6000 gallon cars would be nice as well as a good insulated car.
Ned Carey
From: Kathe Robin
22 Feb 2002
The so called "GRAMPS" frameless tank cars (properly called VanDyke
cars) have been available periodically with standard gauge trucks from
PSC in brass. In addition they have kits for these cars in the $30
range. (There are NO differences in the tandard gauge vs. narrow gauge
cars as manufactured.) They make very nice 6000 gallon cars.
My Cheat River Coal & Lumber Co. uses a group of these for online
distribution of water and certain lubricants required at the various
logging sides.
Max Robin
22 Feb 2002
Ned and all;
Yes, you are right. We do need an X3 and a GATC-produced car, plus some of
smaller dimensions, and perhaps a 2 or 3-dome car for variety. Presumably
these are all ICC 103 or 103-W cars for general service.
There are also some specialty cars within the 103 class that are also
interesting and needed.
The 103A has a 1% dome and is used in acid service. It looks outwardly like
the 103 except for that 1% dome. They used these for sulfuric acid, oleum,
aqueous hydrolfluoric acid and titanium tetrachloride (yikes).
The 103A-N-W was made out of nickel or nickel alloy, also had a 1% dome,
and was used for phosphorous oxychloride and trichlorides, benzyl chloride,
and chloroacetyl chloride (also yikes).
Then there's the 103AL cars with aluminum tanks. You could make one of
these from a 103 car, as the only diff is the aluminum tank. They were used
for methanol, gasoline, and acetone. There are more, but I won't bore you
unless you ask.
Are any of you interested in the ICC 105 cars that were used in the
post-war period for hauling LPG, anyhydrous ammonia and the like? These are
the ones that the Athearn chemical tank tried to emulate. They had a small
cylindrical housing in place of a dome that had all the valves and fittings
inside it to protect them, and a hatch covering the whole mess. The "dome"
on the 105's looks like the one on the Ath car, but was in reality somewhat
smaller. The early 105's had insulated jackets put together in pieces, with
an inset end. Most had tiny side-mounted done platforms or none at all,
while some had little versions of the platform that (again) Athearn tried to
simulate.
There is only one plastic car that I've seen that looks good enough to
kitbash into something good (105), and that is the old AHM car (thanks, Mark
Evans!). It represents an ICC 105-A-300(?)-W car from the 1950's, of which
there are a couple prototypes. While in some ways crude, the tank and frame
can be used, and the dome is a fairly good representation of the dome on
these cars. One would need to add underbody detail, replace the platform,
add grabs, and in general spruce it up, but you would have a good car for
that era. This one has a really domed end, is insulated but without the
obvious panels of the earlier ones (now welded), and is very stubby looking
compared to the earlier 105's.
So all, have a good weekend, and build some tank cars when you have time.
Elden Gatewood
23 Feb 2002
Eldon asked...
"Are any of you interested in the ICC 105 cars that were used in the
post-war period for hauling LPG, anyhydrous ammonia and the like?"
Most emphatically, yes! They carried butane, propane, chlorine, anhydrous
ammonia, sulfur dioxide and host of other stuff.
Larry Rice
22 Feb 2002
> There is only one plastic car that I've seen that looks good
enough to
> kitbash into something good (105), and that is the old AHM car
(thanks, Mark
> Evans!). It represents an ICC 105-A-300(?)-W car from the
1950's, of which
> there are a couple prototypes.
Is this the one which simulated an insulated tank on a separate
underframe with turnbuckle tie-downs? I don't recall if it was
made by Roco or Mehano.
A very degraded version was later sold by Model Power as
their "Fat Albert" car. It had the places where the turnbuckles
would have gone but lacked them, and the railings around the
tank were molded in place rather than being separate wire
railings.
If not, and you know what car I'm speaking of, can you tell
me what it is? Somewhere I have several of each I intended
to rework but put aside in a short fit of sanity...
Fred Dabney
23 Feb 2002
I'm interested in cars used to haul chlorine and hydrochloric acid to
paper mills and pulp mills for the 1920-1930 and 1940 - 1950 time
frames. Any pointers or help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Max Robin
23 Feb 2002
Regarding the Fat Albert tank, I believe that it kind of matches an aluminum
tank from the GATX manual, though some modifications are necessary to get it
closer. Mine is in storage, but as I recall, it had the proper tank
dimensions and truck spacing (well, pretty close for me anyways). I think
all I had to do was build new tank saddles (this prototype car had twin ears
above the saddle) and a new dome platform. As with most of my other
modelling projects, I never found time to finish it (car drawings having
taken precedence) but I will check my GATX book and see what car I used for
the basis of my model. Note that this is a more modern car than those of
the 50's.
Regards,
Jim Kinkaid
Subject: Propane and Butane cars
Feb 23 2002
>From a new subscriber: I saw from your excellent archives a message from
a few months ago regarding the liquified gas industry. Propane and
butane were the primary markeatable products. In the pre WWII period,
they were by-products of natural gas processing ( which also produced
natural gasoline for your type IV/ ICC 104 tankcars). It was a minor
industry until the Type V/ ICC 105 tankcar (insulated and pressurized)
was developed by ACF c. 1927. Phillips and Skelly were the first big
producers/marketers: Philgas and Skelgas. First cars were 11,500 gallon
capacity vaguely resembling the Athearn chemical tank.
Jon Pansius
Feb 24 2002
Erratta on my last posting: the industry developed after the introduction
of pressurized tankcars. Type V cars existed before for certain
chemicals. Some butane cars were Type IV. Best source for the origins of
the industry is "Handbook of Butane-Propane Gases" published c. 1933-4.
I photocopied excerpts at the Tulsa City-County Library. Try the
technology or business desks at a large city library, or perhaps
inter-library loan. Let me know if anyone has specific questions, eg.
warning placards, rates, etc.
Jon Pansius.
25 Feb 2002
Hi all;
Chlorine used to be transported in those ICC 105A300 cars. That is pretty
equivalent to the car that AHM made that I was refering to. I don't know
what that other car is, as I have not seen one. The AHM car appears to be
an AC&F prototype (there are a couple in that great Kaminiski AC&F book) of
about 1955 vintage (?). The car is short, with highly domed ends,
insulated, and yes, has those "tie-downs" that come out of the insulated
jacket (no visible bands) under the handrail and attach to the frame with
turnbuckles. Is this what people refer to as the "Fat Albert"? I have
never seen an upgraded model of one of these, unfortunately. It would be
worth the trouble.
For those that wanted their chlorine in "LCL" quantities within a
facility (like water treatment plants) could get it in the ICC 106A500 cars
like the MTS brass model. These guys had multiple removable tanks of one
ton cap each that lay in a rack crosswise to direction of travel. They are
also really neat cars, and not much has ever been said about them. As far
as I know, no one knows much about them, so they get no attention. I talked
to a guy that used to work in a water treatment plant and he said they used
them quite regularly, and the tanks were taken all over the plant to
locations from which chlorine had to be injected into the system. Another
car for which there has been no attention given, unfortunately.
Hydrochloric (not hydrofluoric) was transported in ICC 103B (riveted) or
103B-W (welded) cars that were lined with rubber. The 1% dome on these guys
is very distinctive, with all the valves and unloading apparatus on top, as
there was neither a bottom outlet or washout. It unloaded via a long tube
that extended to the tank bottom and outleted on top of the "dome". How'd
you like to get the unloading valve stuck open on a load of hydrochloric
acid?
Elden Gatewood
25 Feb 2002
> Chlorine used to be transported in those ICC 105A300 cars. That
is pretty
> equivalent to the car that AHM made that I was refering to. I
don't know
> what that other car is, as I have not seen one. The AHM car
appears to be
> an AC&F prototype (there are a couple in that great Kaminiski
AC&F book) of
> about 1955 vintage (?). The car is short, with highly domed
ends,
> insulated, and yes, has those "tie-downs" that come out of the
insulated
> jacket (no visible bands) under the handrail and attach to the
frame with
> turnbuckles. Is this what people refer to as the "Fat Albert"?
Sounds like it.
The original model , at least the one I just looked at had "AHM",
"yugoslavia", and "Tempo" cast into the bottom of the center sill.
Over all, the castings weren't bad but the crude platform, ladder
and dome (one piece casting) made it look worse than it
could look if you replaced these parts.
The Model Power version was much simplified with the
hand rails cast into the tank, no turnbuckles and other
such stuff.
It's the Model Power version that is labeled "Fat Albert",
while in an old AHM catalog, they simply list it as
"Tank Car".
Several years ago, I started to rebuild one as a pilot for a
batch, but the platform looked to be more work than I
wanted to mess with.
However, it looks like the dome and platform casting for
the recent Atlas chlorine car might make a good stand-in
for a quick and dirty way to finish it. And Grandt Line
has some large scale turnbuckles I could use as well.
I need to get those things out of the way so am looking
at ways to finish them. I'd buy the Atlas parts but at
this time they don't sell them as parts...
Fred Dabney
26 Feb 2002
Hi all;
I thought you might be interested in knowing what types of tank cars were
around during that period. The tank car type is published in the ORER, so
you can figure out roughly what is out there by year, and also, if you have
a photo but are unsure about what service a tank car was in, this will help
out.
"TA" tanks were equipped with containers (tank) of ICC spec 103A, 103A-W,
103E-W, 103A-N-W, 103C, 103C-W, and 111A100-W-6. It would also include
those tanks modified to meet that standard from the older ARA-II, ARA-III,
ICC 103-W or ICC 111A100-W-2 if those cars were modified to comply with the
requirements of ICC 103A cars.
The 103A cars were steel riveted tanks with 1% domes in acid service, top
unloading only, and either insulated or not. They were used for sulfuric
acid, particularly. The 103A-W was the welded version of this. Neither was
lined.
The 103E-W was the stainless steel fusion-welded 1% domed, top unloading
acid car, mainly used for phosphoric acid. It would have looked similar but
for the tank material.
The 103A-N-W was the nickel or nickel alloy tank similar to those above.
They were used primarily in phosphorus oxychloride and trichloride service,
but also were used for industrial resins.
The 103C and 103C-W were the riveted and welded versions of a stainless
tank equipped with a 1% dome, top unloading only, also insulated or not.
The only equipment difference I can find between this and the 103E-W is that
the 103C-W does not have a bottom washout. The 103C-W was used in nitric
acid, hydrazone, chlorosulfuric acid and formic acid service. All the
Nassssty stuff.
Interestingly, the drawings I have of each show the 103C-W with a skinny
1% dome with a separate "cap" on top that protects the valves and unloading
eqpt. The whole dome is about 3' tall and very neat looking. I think one
could model this with no tremendous problems, although the dome is clearly
scratch. The problem would be the juncture between the dome and tank, as no
one makes a tank with 1% dome. I believe the easiest approach would be to
modify the RC car, as it is welded and has no rivet detail around the
saddle.
The 103E-W car has a short, fat 1% dome that appears to be only marginally
smaller in diameter than a regular 2% dome on the same tank, but is only 12"
high. The dome also has the 18" hinged manway, a 2" safety vent, a
"discharge arrangement" consisting of a length of pipe with two large
flanges, the larger intermediate to the pipe length, and a 1" "air
connection", related to the unloading apparatus? This also could be modeled
with an RC car, with the proper mods.
The last of the TA tanks was the 111A100-W-2, which was a 60's
development. This was a big tank without a dome, and with all sorts of new
features like a gauging device, safety vents or valves good for 75 psi, and
top unloading but a bottom washout. They were used for aqueous hydrofluoric
acid, mixed acid, and sulfuric acid.
If you have a need for these TA cars, you will need to do some interesting
kit-bashing or scratchbuilding. Fortunately, you can use some existing cars
for most of the car. The tanks are modifiable, and the frame can be used
as-is, with removal of the bottom outlet.
Oh, the photo of the 103C-W type dome is on a car owned by Allied
Chemicals on page 20 of "Classic Freight Cars... vol. 2..." That one is
supposedly in sulfur trioxide service. Tell me it isn't cool! I think you
could scratchbuild the top housing with no problem, or you could cast it
from one of the available LP tank models, as it doesn't appear much
different. If you had to build an insulated on like the photo, I think you
could probably apply an embossed "wrapper" to an uninsulated tank that would
meet the bill. All you'd have to do is emboss rivets on the outside edge
and perhaps gouge a little seam into the wrapper to represent the weld
seams. The flange between the upper and lower jacket halves could be
represented with a piece of "L" girder in a small size. The hold-downs
would not also be all that hard. You could use the AC&F underframe from the
Type 27 or the RC car with a little mod.
All right, I'll stop. But, are you interested in glass-lined cars (TG)?
Rubber-lined (TL)?
Elden Gatewood
27 Feb 2002
Subject: Fw: Types of tank cars in the 50's and 50's
Hello group,
I can't tell you how glad I am to see
this discussion. I am in the process of
building an HO scale layout that may
someday represent a portion of the
Danville division of the Southern Ry. in
1963.
One of many questions that remains
unanswered is, " what types of tank cars where used to transport jet fuel to
Seymour Johnson AFB(DODX), what
types to transport propane, and what types to transport corn/soybean oil?"
All three of these industries will be on
my layout. Any help you generous and knowledgeable folks can provide
will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Bill Aulicino
1 Mar 2002
Hi all;
It is a little hard to speculate as to the types of cars going to a specific
location, but this is the best I can do:
1) jet fuels were transported in ICC 111A100-W-1 cars, 111A100-W-1(IL), and
ICC 103-W(IL) cars. I do not know exactly what kind of lining this
involved. DOD had its own fleet of 103 cars, a few of which are available
in HO from IM and P2K, I believe.
2) propane was shipped in ICC 105A, 112A, and 114A cars. The 105 cars are
the ones we have been talking about for which there is no plastic model.
The 112's are those nice Atlas whalebellys, but of course are only good for
post~'64 or so.
3) Corn or soy oils were also carried in 111A100-W cars, and any of the
ubiquitous 103 cars.
You've got it pretty good, then! You are covered at least 2 for 3. I am
also sure that there are much more educated persons than I on this list that
can narrow some of this down for you regarding those specific commodities.
Elden Gatewood
1 Mar 2002
Bill Aulicino wrote:
"(W)hat types of tank cars were used to transport jet fuel to
Seymour Johnson AFB(DODX)?"
103W - 50 ton trucks, 10k gallons
George Gounley
2 Mar 2002
> Bill Aulicino wrote:
>
> "(W)hat types of tank cars were used to transport jet fuel to
> Seymour Johnson AFB(DODX)?"
>
> 103W - 50 ton trucks, 10k gallons
>
>
> George Gounley
>
> Thank you very much!!
THIS DISCUSSION WAS ON THE RM forum LIST
28 Feb 2002
sam fussell asked:
>has any body ever built a sulfuric acid tank car in ho, the 42 foot
>tanks, if so i could sure use some help, thanks.
Nope, no models of an acid tank that I can recall, not even as craftsman
kits. The nearest model I can think of was a Roller Bearing Models kit for
a ferric chloride tank (which are longer), and that's LONG out of
production.
You could kitbash one from the MDC "50-foot" tank (based on a
General-American general-purpose uninsulated 20,000g tank, but flawed) or
the Athearn "62-foot" tank (based on ACF fuel oil tanks from the early
'60s). In either case you'll have to cut the body down. The MDC tank is a
bit fatter than the Athearn, so that could influence your choice depending
on prototype. Both of then will require a bunch of work to make an
accurate model from. You'll have to scratchbuild new tank saddles and
other details.
Sulphuric acid tanks have all of their fittings atop the manway, since the
tank itself is basically a rubber bottle supported by a steel shell. The
fittings are up top to minimize their exposure to the acid (nasty stuff).
Islington Station Products makes several decal sets for acid tanks, but you
might have to mix & match sets to get the lettering for your prototype.
Scott Chatfield
28 Feb 2002
--- In RAILROADmodeler@y..., blindog@m... wrote:
> >has any body ever built a sulfuric acid tank car in ho, the 42 foot
> >tanks, if so i could sure use some help, thanks.
>
> [you could cut one down from] the Athearn "62-foot" tank.
>
> Sulphuric acid tanks have all of their fittings atop the manway,
> since the tank itself is basically a rubber bottle supported by a
> steel shell.
Inriguing. It seems that "many moons ago", I may have accidentally
built a sulfuric acid tank! I took an Athearn 62-footer, and chopped
about 20 feet out of the middle to make a "beercan" car. Then, being
frugal, I put the two end pieces back together to create what was
essentially a 42-foot version of the Athearn tank! It's still got
its frame (since the tank is essentially just a steel shell to
support the rubber liner), and it was "extensively redetailed",
primarily because the entire manway area was on the beercan... I had
to improvise!
Den Lippert
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