Are caboose questions on topic for the FC list?? If not let me know and I'll not post anymore...hosam...I'll be glad to get answers off list Question 1: When and why did the 8 wheel caboose replace the 4 wheel? Question 2: Does anyone have a timeline on the various type trucks used on cabooses? ie: Arch bar from 19**-19** Bettendorf from 19*8-19** I'm not even sure what the different types used on cabooses were. I'm talking in general as I know there were many "homemade" units built over the years. From looking at pictures it seems as if most were equipped with leaf-springs rather than coils as used on freight trucks. Question 3: Was there a governing body for cabooses like the AAR etc for freight cars?? Interchange rules don't apply since cabooses were not(usually) in interchange service. I would appreciate any answers and/or leads where this type information could be found...hosam... Sir, White's The American Railroad Freight Car book has a good discussion on 4-wheel cabooses, or bobbers, starting at page 414. It states that the B&O class K-1 4-wheel caboose was blt up thru 1910. Down from 650 in 1924 to a dozen in 1945. The C&O was building them new in 1906 (ACF Huntinton lots 5396 (pix C&O 432) and 5302 (pix C&O 504). Down to 27 in Jan 1913, and 28 in Jan 1915 . . .after that either lumped together with the 8-wheelers or gone. That was some 25 years after the last of the C&O's 4-wheel hopper bottom gondolas were accidentally dumped into a river and left to decay. The PR was building new cabooses until ~1907. Hope you can somehow find out what colors they painted these 4-wheel cabooses prior to WWI . . . my guess is most likely brown . . . maybe with a coat of varnish. The C&O did authorize a C&O Air Brake Freight Car Orange in 1893 for both box cars and cabooses. No pictures of the orange cabooses to my knowledge, just some of the orange box cars with dark lettering. I have a pix of a 4-wheel box or tool car for Pond Fork and Bald Knob RR blt in 1924 by ACF. Guest-i-mating from limited exposure, Al Kresse >Question 1: When and why did the 8 wheel caboose replace the 4 wheel? I believe the was an eventual prohibition against 4-whl cabooses which culminated in the late 1940s. Otherwise, I don't think there were too many 4-whl. cabooses produced after 1921. As far as larger railroads, 4-whl. cabooses enjoyed a lingering popularity in the middle Atlantic region as opposed to the rest of the country. I think the shortness of runs was an important factor. >Question 2: Does anyone have a timeline on the various type trucks used on >cabooses? ie: Arch bar from 19**-19** > Bettendorf from 19*8-19** This would somewhat parallel freight cars, but I'm sure it's very owner (or builder) specific. CNJ still had steel center sill, arch bar cabooses in service in the early 1970s. Eric New York State outlawed 4 wheel cabooses some time in the 1920's. The D&H rebuilt many of theirs into 8 wheel ones by lengthening the body, etc. The state of Pennsylvania never seemed to pass any such measure and they were in use by the RDG and the PRR (but kept out of NY) until about 1950. I am unaware of any ICC requirements on cabooses. I think it was just general safety considerations that finally eliminated them. The State of Pennsylvania also passed rulings limiting the amount of diesel horsepower that could be placed behind a caboose in pusher service; even if it had a steel underframe. I believe the total locomotive hp was limited to about 3500 hp or the equivalent of two RS-3s. This restriction may have been revoked in the 70's or so since it seemed that the PRR placed lots of hp behind cabooses on the Horseshoe Curve. Chuck Y Boulder Co > The state of Pennsylvania never seemed to pass any such measure and they >were in use by the RDG and the PRR (but kept out of NY) until about 1950. Last RDG 4-whl. caboose retired 1949. LNE 4-whl. caboose lasted up until the end (1961), but they had been transferred to MW sometime after 1950. Eric Well here is what I know about your Qs I answered them below them. to make it easyer for you and any one else I do not not know all the answers but someone on this list will finish it. Coil springs were for heavy loads ie loaded boxcars that need the heavy springs for suport if the springs are not loaded the car hops and shakes. The leaf springs are designed for a light load ie the car weighs the same empty or full. Interchange laws would aply if a cab lift a RR for another ie if it is on a unite train or through freight. Some RRs did/do crosscountry freights that when they were using cabs might have included sending a caboose cross country with the freight. Donald Riley In 1913 Ohio's Legislature passed a law requiring all cabs used in the State to have 8 wheels and be no shorter than 24 feet excluding the end platforms. Implementation of this law was allowed to happen gradually but railroads had to increase the number of compliant cars by at least 15% each year until full compliance was achieved. However, full compliance was required no later than 1919. There were several ways railroads could meet these new requirements. They could build new cars, modify existing ones or transfer compliant cars from other locations. B&O was a big user of 4 wheel hacks but opted to meet this new law by building new ones of 8 wheels. Thus the I-1 was born. Bob weston Question 1: When the eight-wheeled replaced the four-wheeled caboose varied from railroad to railroad. Some railroads never had a four-wheeler, others had nothing but in the early days. Average length of a freight run was a big factor. In general, the great western railroads had few four-wheelers because the caboose was a "home away from home" for the train crew and it had to be big enough for the crew to live in while laying over between runs. Most 4-wheeled cabooses were found in the eastern half of the nation. The usual reason to replace the 4-wheeler with the eight-wheeler was state law. In New York the law was enacted in 1913, in Pennsylvania, 1929. Even then there were numerous exemptions...in Pennsylvania any railroad with less then fifty route miles within the state border was exempted, which is why the Maryland & Pennsylvania was still operating bobbers up into the 1960s. And 4-wheelers were still permitted on local freights and work trains. Question 2: Arch bar trucks were finally banned from use in interstate commerce because they were found to be too flexible at high speeds and were the cause of several wrecks. But cabooses were not interchange cars and thus were not affected. In general, railroads began to build cabooses in the 1920s with other then arch bars, but many older cabooses on some class 1 railroads, such as the B&O, still had them in the 1950s. Exactly what truck was under the caboose, again, depended on the railroad's individual preferences and, to some extent, what the caboose's assignment was. On the Reading, for example, the Taylor truck was found under many of their cabooses. On the Boston & Maine, most cabooses had passenger-style trucks, as was the case on the Burlington. Leaf springs gave a softer ride then coil springs and were almost universally demanded by train crews. Since most cabooses did not carry heavy loads, there was no problem over that. Question 3: I'm not sure just how much authority the ICC had over cabooses, but they did have a requirement that cabooses in interstate service have an observation point: a cupola and/or a bay window. Again, there were exceptions to that rule, as the Indiana Harbor Belt and other switching railroads that crossed state lines operated most, if not all, of their cabooses without cupolas or bay windows. anon Hey ya'll! If I can throw my two-cents worth in... there's a decent (not great) book on cabooses that I found at Barnes & Boble Booksellers appropriately named "CABOOSE" written by Brian Solomon and John Gruber. Question 1: In that book, there is a brief (and very vague) history of the caboose. According to the book, "...four-wheelers were being built new into the first decade of the twentieth century. Some remained in regular service through the end of World War II." Keep in mind that the first freight cars used in the U.S. were four- wheelers and the first cabooses were no more than "modified" boxcars with cupolas and windows added. As for the "bobber", again according to this book..."Supposedly, the type was born on the Erie Railroad back when that line was still broad gauge, using rails spaced six feet apart instead of the standard 4 feet 8 1/2 inches. In need of some cabooses, Erie's resourceful shop forces took a damaged boxcar and cut it in half. Each section was then fashioned into a short caboose." Question 2: I have no idea. *grin* Question 3: As much as I can tell, there wasn't an "official" governing body for cabooses, but the Pennsylvania RR, was known to be "The Standard Railroad of the World", began standardizing its locomotives, rolling stock and cabooses. This standardization carried over to other railroads. Even though there were several manufacturers of cabooses, they each seem to have followed the PRR's standards. I hope this helps...even just a little bit. "highrailer5"Page 1 © S.A.McCall